Using a Podcast to Build Your Brand
Episode Show Notes
Welcome to PodOn, the podcast where we share stories from other podcasters and talk with them about the challenges we all face when beginning the podcasting journey. If you are a podcaster, we would love to hear your story and your feedback. If you love this podcast, please subscribe and share it with your friends.
On this PodOn episode, Julian and TJ talk to Lessons From A Quitter’s Goli Kalkhoran, about her journey leaving her job, what it was like to start a podcast, and how she pushed through self doubt and limiting beliefs. They’ll touch on their serendipitous encounter at a podcasting fair and dive into Goli’s super encouraging tips on how to survive those first months of podcasting insecurities. Listen to learn more about the Lessons From A Quitter coaching program and why it is okay to still be figuring it out.
Jump straight into:
(02:34) - Goli’s life before podcasting and jumpstarting Lessons From a Quitter - “In 2016 I knew I was going to eventually start a podcast about this, but I had all these limiting beliefs and all these other stories about why I couldn't.”
(7:46) - Using podcasts to build your brand’s trust factor- “If you have more of a brand that you want to create, a really special thing about podcasting is that it's such an intimate medium.”
(12:06) - Goals and self doubt at the beginning - “It takes a year of podcasting to really feel like you know what you're doing.”
(16:04) - How Goli’s podcast grew into something else- “Sometimes it's just pushing through, but a lot of it was me really working on my mindset and realizing why am I doing this.”
(19:40) - On being too precious about your podcast - “Every time I've pivoted or done something else, it's always worked out really well, so I'm learning that to be less afraid.”
(23:27) - There are no overnight successes - “You're always comparing your step one to someone else's step 20, or step 30, or year 10.”
(27:28) - Why being multifaceted actually works - “People want you to be a full human, they don't necessarily need you to just be a brand.
Resources
Follow Goli on Instagram
PodOn is hosted by TJ Bonaventura and Julian Lewis, founders of the full-service podcast company based in San Francisco, StudioPod. If you want more details on how to fully record and produce your podcast with our services, you can reach us at http://studiopodsf.com, send us an email at info@studiopodsf.com or contact us through our social media channels as @studiopodmedia.
Episode Transcript (via Rev.com)
TJ Bonaventura:
Okay, PodOn peeps, super excited about today's episode, where Julian and I are going to be joined by Goli Kalkhoran, longtime friend of the show in StudioPod. Goli is a lawyer-turned-entrepreneur, which is just a fancy way of saying she tried to quit law, and she did quit law. She tried a bunch of things after she quit law and she happened upon an idea that she turned into a business and a brand.
TJ Bonaventura:
That brand is Lessons From A Quitter, which includes a podcast where she uses her platform to destigmatize quitting and provide resources and inspiration to individuals looking to pivot their established career. Julian and I resonate with Goli the moment we met her in LA at Podcast Evolutions just over a year ago, as Julian and I have both left our careers to start a podcast production company, which is now StudioPod.
TJ Bonaventura:
I hope you all enjoy this episode and takes little nuggets of what it takes to start a podcast, and also some risks you need to take. And honestly, and understanding that there's going to be a little bit of failure and there's a lot of lessons to be learned on this show. So enjoy Goli and here we go. This is the PodOn Podcast. We're your host, TJ Bonaventura, that's me, and Julian Lewis.
Julian Lewis:
That's me. As founders of a podcast media company, we had to start a podcast.
TJ Bonaventura:
So join us each episode as we and our guest drop knowledge on podcasting for you, the curious and scrappy podcaster.
Speaker 3:
Whoo!
Julian Lewis:
Welcome back to the PodOn Podcast. Today we have an extra special guest, a guest that we met at our first podcast conference, what was at Podcast Evolutions, right before the pandemic hit. Goli, we met in the hall, I believe, TJ and I had spread stickers all over the entryway table just to try to get the word out on StudioPod and we just ran into you.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah, you guys were actually wearing matching jackets, which was a really nice touch, a real nice touch. And actually it's really smart because it was like an ice breaker because it gave me, I think we were just standing next to each other and I was like, "How do I get one of those jackets?" We were just, I don't know. You guys have [inaudible 00:02:11]. So then we started talking there, which was nice.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And I think the thing about that conference for us, it was a little intimidating because we were just getting started together on the business and it was like, we don't know what to expect. We don't know who we're going to run into, but it was such a great opportunity to meet great people like you, who were in different stages of what you do in podcasting.
Julian Lewis:
And so with this particular episode, we really want to dive into how you got into podcasting, but first I think it's very important for people to understand what you were doing before you started your podcast.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Okay. Yeah. So I actually, in another life, I was a lawyer for a number of years. So my career was doing what I was supposed to do, going to school, going to law school, becoming a lawyer. And I worked as a lawyer for a number of years and then in 2014, I decided to walk away. I was really unhappy in that career and I was very lost as to what I want to because it was the only thing I'd ever done. It's the only thing I'd ever worked for. It's the only skills I had. And so I was terrified, but I also was committed to not spending the next 35 years being unhappy.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I was like, "You know what? I got to figure this out." And so I left really having no idea what I was going to do. And long story short, I spent about four years building another business, a photo booth company, figuring out jumping into entrepreneurship, really discovering who I am, doing a lot of that interpersonal journey work.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And then in that time, two years in, I was listening to a lot of podcasts. I was really changing my mindset through listening to podcasts. It was the first time that I was really discovering another way that I didn't have to stay stuck. And so I loved the medium of podcasting from the beginning because I had a baby in 2014. So it was just really helpful when I was cleaning around the house or I was at home to listen to podcasts. So I was consuming a lot of podcasts.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And then I started having this idea of interviewing people who had quit very successful professional careers, careers that most people would think you're crazy to walk away from, and then doing something completely different, because I would get so many of my law school friends, law firm friends, just people that would find out that I left and they would confide like, "I wish I could leave. You're so lucky. Why don't we talk about this?"
Goli Kalkhoran:
So many people are miserable, but they feel stuck. We're just wasting our lives away in places that we hate. And so I had this idea for two years and I didn't... In 2016, I knew I was going to eventually start a podcast about this, but I had all these limiting beliefs and all these other stories about why I couldn't, why I wasn't the one to do it, and who am I and why would anyone listen to me and all that other BS that I had to get over. And it was just like it wouldn't go away.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I kept being like, "Okay, maybe later, maybe right now is not the time." And I remember actually in 2018, I would incessantly check, I would browse podcasts, and I always had the fear that somebody else was going to start it. I was going to see the podcast that was exactly this topic and I knew I would be filled with regret.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so in 2018 I saw another podcast that was similar. It wasn't about this, but it was about, it's called Don't Keep Your Day Job with Cathy Heller. It's a pretty big podcast. And I just remember that sinking feeling, oh, it's very closely related. Obviously there's a lot of podcasts on the same topic, but at the time, with my mindset, it was just the awakening that I needed, that I was like, put this fricking podcast out, stop stalling. You want to do it, just do it already.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I just decided to put it out there and I had no idea really what it was going to become. I didn't have an idea about monetizing from it. I didn't have an idea of turning into a business. I was just like, "I want to have this conversation." I have this conversation all the time with people in private. People ask me about it, because I'd taken the leap, I started seeing the story everywhere.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I would see news articles about people that had quit, we had parties talking to people and they'd be like, "Oh, I used to be a lawyer and I quit and I'm doing this." And I'm like, "What? I never heard these stories when I was a lawyer."
Goli Kalkhoran:
So anyways, it's not long story short. It's a long story long. Now it took all of that for me to put it out in 2018 and really just started interviewing other people. And I called it Lessons From A Quitter, and it's obviously tongue in cheek and it's meant to change the idea that we have around quitting in these false beliefs that we have like once you pick something, you have to stick to that. Even if you pick something at 18 and then you're never allowed to change your mind, you always have to persist. And so I really wanted to show you can start over and you can do something else.
TJ Bonaventura:
Thanks for sharing that. It's very serendipitous that we met at that conference because our stories aligned pretty well, where in 2016, I had the idea of creating a studio to help people have a turnkey option to create their podcast. And then it wasn't until 2018 that I ultimately decided to jump all in and then Julian came on board and the rest of it is history. But I think for our audience-
Julian Lewis:
Flexibility history. [inaudible 00:07:12]
TJ Bonaventura:
There you go. For our audience where I think it really resonates and everyone has that moment where they're like, "We want to something." For us specifically, it's podcasting. I read a book, When To Jump by Mike Lewis, that was very influential for me and it was that moment of, oh, shit, I got to do this. If I don't scratch it, it's going to be 35 years later, like you said, and I'm just [inaudible 00:07:27] what have I done?
TJ Bonaventura:
For our audience and ultimately our clients that come in who want to start a podcast, they have this idea and they have this itch that they want to scratch, but they don't really know that first step is that they should take. And back in 2016, you could just start a show. And you were able to have a really niche topic that you wanted to talk about and ultimately people would listen.
TJ Bonaventura:
Now the market's gotten very saturated. There's probably two or three shows that exist around the topic that you want to chat about. So we are encouraging a lot of our clients to use the podcast as a larger arm towards their macro brand. Can you speak to how you have built the Lessons Of a Quitter brand around the podcast?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Totally. Yeah, I did it backwards, I think. I just did it because I really wanted to have this conversation and I didn't have a plan. And now I definitely use it as an arm of marketing for my business and I think if you have more of a brand that you want to create, really special thing about podcasting is that it's such an intimate medium.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So part of brand work, any type of marketing, is building your, they call it the know, like, and trust factor. You want to build a relationship with people because people buy because of that relationship. People hire you, people trust you. And once you can build that, it's easier to get over objections. It's easier for you to sell whatever that you are selling and for people to trust you. And so it's, I think the best medium, when you look at a lot...
Goli Kalkhoran:
Other mediums are great at other things, but podcasting, it's not the best, I would say, in width. So if you're trying to go viral or you're trying to go get huge numbers, podcasting is not the place to do that. But from the people that are going to find you and then you're in their ear every week and you're talking to them about the thing that they're coming to you for, it creates an unparallel level of intimacy between you and your listeners and so they feel like they know you. I feel like this with the podcasters I listen to. I feel like they're in my living room and they're just talking to me and I trust them so much more.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I think when you look at it that way, that's where I try to go the deepest is in my podcast. My material in my podcast is going to be the people that really do want to work with me, go there. And then Instagram, all that other stuff, TikTok. Those are more width. We are trying to get more people to know who you are.
Julian Lewis:
I love that you talk about it as an intimate medium, and just an example, a couple weeks ago and then last night, I was pitching two individuals on executing a starter pack with us where we can just help them get started because we want to remove that barrier and then we want to get options afterwards of how they can work with us.
Julian Lewis:
And in that conversation that we had, it was through a mutual connection, before we had the conversation, she had gone to our website, saw a picture of TJ and I, and then she listened to an episode of the PodOn Podcast. And she said, "I can see why I would want to work with y'all because of your personalities."
Julian Lewis:
And I think it gives you such a great piece of marketing for somebody to discover you and already have an idea of who you are. You're not necessarily like a scummy salesperson who's trying get you to buy something exactly to your point, but you're a human behind that. And I think for me, having worked at a large platform in Pinterest, that's very well known, it wasn't hard to get in the door, but it was still hard to make a sale because I was a salesperson coming to them. I wasn't somebody who was trying to add value out of the gates by having them on my show or having a conversation.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. And I think that right now in this world of oversaturation of everywhere, there's influencers on every platform, there's people trying to sell you all the time, every single day everyone's vying for your attention, it can feel very quickly overwhelming. And I think a lot of people have a lot of distrust. And so I just think that it really helps you find who your people are.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And another great thing is, it helps you find who your people aren't. Somebody might listen to your podcast and just know that they don't want to work with you. And that's just as good of an understanding as it is finding the people because you just want to know who going to be your best clients, who you're going to work well with. It takes exactly what you're saying, you don't then have to do tons of sales calls or create this whole funnel and won't nurture them. Your podcast does that all on its own.
TJ Bonaventura:
Yeah, that's so great that you said that. And then Julian and I were smiling when you mentioned getting a no is just as good as a yes is an old sales adage that we used to have, where it's like, "Know what? If they say no, good. Then I don't have to spin my wheels with them. Now we can focus on the potential real clients or the people that are really serious about creating, in this case, a podcast."
TJ Bonaventura:
I want to touch on a little bit of when you first got started. What were some measurements and goals that you had yourself as you began to record, as you began to edit, as you really wanted to your show off the ground? And I think you're well over 100 episodes already.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah, I'm at 130. Yeah.
TJ Bonaventura:
Yeah, it's awesome.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah.
TJ Bonaventura:
Congratulations. That's a big number. It's a big number.
Goli Kalkhoran:
It is, yeah. I know it's...
TJ Bonaventura:
It's like two years worth.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yep. It is. It's almost two and a half years. Yeah. Yeah, I'm super proud of that. And that's actually the only measurement I really was focusing on when I started. I told myself, "I'm going to do this for a year, come hell or high water. I'm going to put out an episode every single week for one year and then I can reassess." Because I know the drama that lives inside your brain, and I know every week my brain would be checking stats and being like, "This isn't worth it. Nobody's listening. You shouldn't do it."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I'd heard somebody say beforehand that it takes a year of podcasting to really feel like you know what you're doing. To get an understanding of your brand, to really get an understanding, get... For it to feel smooth.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I was like, "Okay, we're just not going to second guess it." And that's honestly why I picked podcasting too, is talking is easier for me than writing. I knew if I'd picked a blog, I wouldn't put out a blog every week. I just wouldn't. I wouldn't write it. I'd find an excuse. Having an excuse to talk to someone every week was just Christmas morning. I love that stuff.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So I'm like, "I could do this all day long." And so I just decided I'm not going to obsess over metrics. I'm not going to obsess over how many downloads it is or what's happening. I mean, I was looking at growth and I was looking at when I have certain guests and who shares and does their platform matter and where is this making a difference and what platforms should I be on?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Sure. I was looking at all that, but my focus the first year was just put out a podcast every single week. That's your job, is making sure that everyone knows, on Tuesday, there's going to be a new podcast. And so I'm so glad I did that because there would've been... I would've quit if I didn't.
Goli Kalkhoran:
There's a reason there's podfade. There's a reason that so many people think it's not worth it. I don't think they give it the time that it requires to build an audience, for you to figure out what you're doing, figure out systems, figure out a marketing plan. And so that's really all I cared about in the beginning.
Julian Lewis:
What was the hardest week in that year? Meaning, I've had moments where I've been in my garage, it's Sunday night, trying to publish an episode for Monday and this is obviously [inaudible 00:14:29]. What was the hardest day or the hardest time?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. I mean, I definitely had times, I don't remember the exact time, but I definitely had, I would say there's two different times where it was really hard. One is, when technology just isn't working with you. So the episode didn't record, you try to upload it, it's not upload... You want to just throw the computer and I'm like, "I don't even want to do this anymore. This is too blur."And that doesn't happen that often, but there was definitely moments of that kind of frustration.
Goli Kalkhoran:
But I just think we don't accept the fact that self-doubt is going to be a part of the process and it's normal. And I think, there was definitely times where I was questioning like, "Why am I doing this? Is this worth all this work? Is this making a difference? Is anyone even listening? No one's responding to my... No one's even engaging with my posts. Nobody cares."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so when you go on those little spirals, and I would get to a place, because I had two young kids at the time, like when I started in 2018, my daughter was under a year and my son was like four, five, and I'm like, "What am I doing?" And I didn't have a business strategy. I didn't have a plan. And so I think I felt lost in a lot of it.
Goli Kalkhoran:
What am I even going to do with this? It was very clear that I wasn't going to be a huge podcast where I was going to get marketing money, sponsorship revenue. And so that was the hardest, was getting to a place where it's, is it worth it? Because there's a right or wrong answer. Nobody else could tell me if it was worth it or not. If it was going to be... I would listen to things that motivated me, but I definitely had weeks where I was ready to pack it in. And I was like, "I can't keep doing this."
TJ Bonaventura:
So what did you use as motivation then? What did you use to persevere because I think this instant gratification of podcasting is something that is long since past us, which I mentioned a little bit earlier, and we see all these articles, right? So what did you use for motivation?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. I mean, luckily I was doing a lot of work on my mindset. That's what I coach on now and I became really obsessed with mindset work because I was really obsessed with figuring out why I was on this rollercoaster all the time and it felt like I couldn't control my own emotions and stuff. And so because of that work, I just was following people who were giving that same message like it's not going to be... It doesn't have to be a quick thing. Persistence is what's going to get you there and building slowly. And so sometimes it was just on an act of faith.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And again, this is what I'm saying is, I think that making that deal with myself to do it for a year really helped because I was like, "You know what? We've already decided we're doing this for a yeah so stop, you can be as upset as you want, but we're doing this for the next 20 episodes. So just buckle up and do it."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so sometimes it's just pushing through, but a lot of it was me really working on my mindset and realizing why am I doing this? If I'm loving why I'm doing it, why am I getting so caught in the metrics or people not responding the way I want to and whatnot? And so it was a really a lot of focusing back on why I was doing it and managing my own mind through that process.
Julian Lewis:
That's phenomenal. So at what point, was it in the first year or was it after the first year that you were like, you know what, I'm enjoying doing the podcast, but having these conversation is making me want to turn it into more than just a podcast?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. It was like around the one year mark. I mean, I was thinking about it throughout, and again, it was a lot of limiting beliefs of I can't help people and then why, like I'm just going to have these conversations, but I kept getting people messaging me or emailing me, reaching out with the same problems, the same question, the same stuckness, the same fears. It was the same exact person, like the same brain.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I started offering free offer to help them. Or I would just get on a phone and try to figure out what was stopping them or I would help them in my Facebook group, my free Facebook group. And so many people started telling me how helpful it was and how much it had changed the way they thought about it and whatnot.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So then it was right after the first year that I was like, "Let me try and just launch a group program and see if I can get a group of people or we work together and we figure out, so they can figure out what it is they want to do and stuff." And so I just started kind of...
Goli Kalkhoran:
I had been learning more about online businesses and I had seen a lot of people launch courses and coaching programs. And again, I had a lot of the imposter syndrome of, oh, I didn't do this, but I guess one of the good qualities I have is I can push through a lot of my... I mean, after you walk away from being a lawyer, I feel I dealt with the okay, I'm afraid, but I'm going to do it anyways.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I was just like, "Okay, let me just try. If nobody signs up, nobody signs up." And then people signed up and then people had really great results and people loved it. And I started realizing that I love that work more than I liked the podcast. I loved the one-on-one work, I love the coaching aspect. And so it really started from that.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I started doing a coaching thing and then I went and I got a certification as mindset life coach, but focusing really on mindset work and helping people get out of their own way. And then, last year was really when I went all in on the business aspect of it.
Julian Lewis:
That's awesome. We're definitely following up on the mindset life coach. I was telling TJ that I want to do mirror meditations.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Go on. I love that.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah, that could be another topic that we talk about.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. The one thing I wanted to talk about is because you mentioned that you do some pods where you're recording by yourself, sometimes you're having different guests on. A big challenge that we see with a lot of our clients and a bottleneck is the idea of finding the right guest for your show that's going to resonate with your audience, and not just the content of what you're going to be talking about, but actually facilitating that scheduling of getting the recording done and all of that effort that goes into it. What have you learned in your process of 130 episodes in that could maybe offer a little bit help or advice for our listeners?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah, I would say the first 100 were all interviews. Maybe I did like one or two podcasts here and there where it was a year in review or something. But again, it was all my limiting beliefs of, well, people don't want to listen to me or it's like they're here for the interviews, and it's a lot of work. There's no really two ways about it because I was very protective of who I brought on the show. I really wanted it to be people that fit the criteria of somebody that had worked to create a career and then quit and went to something completely different.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I had a VA that helped me reach out to people. I started getting pitched more so that helped find some people. And it's funny because once you put it out there, I would get a lot of people that would, just listeners or family, friends, friends who would see somebody on NBC or whatever that was talking about and they would message me and be like, "You should reach out to this person."
Goli Kalkhoran:
So I found out a lot of people that way. I would just call, email them and be like, "Hey, I have this podcast. I would love for you to come on." That was a lot of work. I'm not going to lie. Since I've switched my format to doing mostly solo episodes with sprinkling in some guest interviews, it's just opened up because I control when I record my solo episodes and I can batch them and I can do four in a row and I can...
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so it makes it a lot easier, whereas you're right where when you're doing interviews, it's based on both parties' schedules, it's harder to find something that works. It's harder to find someone that you like that's a good fit that agrees to come on that.So there's a lot more steps.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I would say, I wanted to do solo episodes probably like six months before I actually started. And once I did it, it was amazing how much my audience wanted that. I was just hiding behind that fear again but so many have told me that they like the interviews, but they listen for me and so they want to hear because I always think like, "Why do you care what I think? You should do for your life."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And hearing that that is why they're listening to you. And so to experiment. I think so often we get so precious with our podcast like, this is the way it is. It's an hour long and it's every week. And it's like, okay, well, switch it up, try a 30-minute solo one and see what happens. I think a lot of times we are too scared to take those risks. I would say that's my biggest advice is every time I've pivoted or done something else, it's always worked out really well. And so I'm learning that, to be less afraid and make those changes each time a little bit faster.
Julian Lewis:
I love that you say that. And that's one of the things that we try to do with our hosts, is instill confidence in them, knowing that no matter what, no matter how great of a guest or high profile of a guest that they have, at the end of the day, people are coming back for them. And that's feedback that I got. TJ and I are part of a group that met in person, it was a meetup group, I could sit in this hot seat and get feedback and people are like, "We want to hear your voice more."
Julian Lewis:
And I was like, "Oh, okay." I was interviewing couples. I was like, "Why do you want to hear my voice?" But they're like, "You're the one who's tying it all together." And so I love that that was a discovery that you had and I think more and more people should feel confident that over time, maybe use a guest as a crutch in the beginning, but over time be confident and you have the ability to really manage and own that show.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah.
TJ Bonaventura:
And I think it also goes to what you're saying there, Julian, and also Goli, what you were saying in terms of just going and recording, giving yourself, I'm going to do a year's worth of recording. It will probably be rough early on. And you're going to be really hard on yourself and that's going to lean into the podfade and you're going to have this moment of lack of confidence but as you continue to record and force yourself to record, you'll learn and you'll ultimately be at a place where you have the confidence of maybe taking a shot and doing a solo recording. I think all of it ties together and oftentimes we're super hard on ourselves. And it goes back into the idea of just leaving your job for something that you have a passion, that's all a scary jump.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Absolutely. And I think to piggyback off that a little bit is, you hear this all the time, but I think I really want people to hear it and take it in, is that you're always comparing your step one to someone else's step 20 or step 30 or whatever, a year, 10. And you're in year one. And you think that you have to have everything figured out and you think it has to be perfect and you can never change it because like so and so... You listen to these podcasts and it's like you are not seeing what that person was starting at.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Every single person, when you start digging, it's like there are no overnight successes. There really aren't. And the more you're willing to give yourself permission to start messy and to be fully human and understand that everybody is starting like that and there can be mistakes.
Goli Kalkhoran:
One of the things that I think my audience always says they love about my show and following me is that, I'm very committed to showing all of my messiness. So I in no way try to portray that I have it together or that I'm perfect. And first of all, it makes it easier for me because I don't have to put on an act to be perfect.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So when I mess up or I send an email to my lose utter that was wrong or the link isn't working or something, they understand that I'm like, "Look, hey, we're failing forward together. Here we go. Here's the link again." It's not like I'm like, oh, I'm trying to be this brand that has this huge team behind them that's doing everything exactly right.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I think when you can take that pressure off, you're somebody that's figuring it out. You're trying something. You're going to mess up. Just plan for that. You're going to fail and that's totally fine. It doesn't mean you're not good at it or you don't have a future in it or anything. When you take that pressure of perfectionism off, it makes it so much more fun. You're like, "Okay, I'm going to try. And when I fail, I'll get back up and I'll do it again."
Julian Lewis:
I love that, removing that bar and you said it's easy for you to be you and show that side. I mean, the first time you do it, you might not be hard for you to say it out loud that yeah, I messed up.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Totally.
Julian Lewis:
But once you do and people don't rip you apart, you're like, "Oh, I could just be me."
Goli Kalkhoran:
Great, and you give people permission to be them. This is what I'm saying. I think people are like, oh. It's sort of comforting. I think in this day and age of social media where a lot of times people, it may look like you're looking at other people and they have their lives together, a lot of the people that I coach, a lot of people that are in my programs, we always joke about it because I'm like, "If I could build a business like this, be in this kind of a hot mess, you can do it too."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And it gives them permission to be like, nothing is going to define you, one mistake or whatnot. And so I think if we could all just stop trying to act like we have it together. And I mean, I always say this, one of my biggest things, nobody has any idea what they're doing. Everyone's just figuring it out. We're all just taking one step and putting it in front of the other. And when you can adopt that, I feel it makes it easy for you, but it also gives permission to your listenership and your customers to be full humans.
TJ Bonaventura:
It's so funny because we get so many awesome ideas that come through our window or our doorways of the studio where like, "Hey, I have this idea for a podcast and it's really awesome and it's got to be super tailored." And then they start asking, "What if I did this? Or what if I did that? What if I did a half interview or what if I did a super long narrative style podcast?"
TJ Bonaventura:
And we're like, "Just do it, try it, you got to risk, learn from it." And they're like, "Wait, what? You're supposed to tell me what to do." And it's like, "Sometimes we don't know what to do." We're figuring out too on our end, we're trying some new styles here in StudioPod and we want to put that up.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I'm going to give you an example of this really quickly. I'm not saying I recommend this, but I just want people to understand. So my platform's called Lessons From a Quitter. So I always talk about career stuff and changes and all that. Last May, in 2021 after George Floyd's murder and the Black Lives Matter movement, there was all the protests everywhere and I used to be a criminal defense attorney.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So I have a unique knowledge of the criminal justice system in America. I used to be a public defender. So I understand from that lens of the problems with the criminal justice system. I think everybody was in a place where it was like, I didn't care about my business at the time and I just figured I can help. I have this platform, I'm just going to do, I did a couple podcast episodes.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I did IGTV. I don't do IGTVs videos at all, but I did a video on the criminal justice system and the problem with it and what stuff. And I did a TikTok. Blew up. Okay? So my audience went from 6,000 people to 19,000 in a week. In TikTok, I went from, I don't know, 20,000, I have 125,000 followers on TikTok now. It exploded. Okay? That's not the thing I talk about.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And what's funny is I was like, "Okay, when that's kind of..." And I did a bunch of other videos on it. And then I transitioned back to the things that I normally talk about over time over the months. And I kept thinking, "Well, I'm probably lose a bunch of followers because they're not here for that." I can't tell you how many customers I've gotten from people that found me because of that and they were interested and then stuck around because they actually need this help too.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I say this just to say, I think we as "brands," it's like we think we're stuck in one thing and you're not allowed to be, like I say, my whole thing about my platform is like, it's just all me. I'm a multifaceted person. I have different views on a lot of different things. And if you don't like it, that's fine, but I'm not going to limit myself to this is all I ever talk about and I can never talk about anything else and I can never do anything else.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And again, for myself, anytime I've gone with that gut, I want to address this, it's worked out. If this helps in any way, I think it was a good lesson for me but again, people want you to be a full human. They don't necessarily need you to just be a brand. And so the more you put yourself in a box, that I can only talk about this, or I can only, and I don't want to lose anything, a lot of times you give up on opportunities to connect with people in different ways to grow your audience in other ways. And it just makes it more fun. It makes it more fun to be able to show up fully as yourself.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. So there's two huge takeaways that I took from that. I mean, so many more, but two great ones. Is, from your platform, just because you quit what you were doing before doesn't mean you don't have that [inaudible 00:30:06] and you can add it to what you're going to do next-
Goli Kalkhoran:
100%.
Julian Lewis:
And that was huge. But then also earlier you're talking about just being real. Like I messed up, I didn't have a link in my newsletter or whatever. It didn't work, whatever it is, but in addressing something that was going on in the world, you truly went from real to being a human and that's what attracted others to you. And now you can go back to your regular scheduled program and knowing that if something else happened, you can address it again and feel comfortable doing so.
Julian Lewis:
And I think that's what's so hard about a brand that tries to step into those conversations, is they don't do that on a normal basis. Don't know who's behind it, and for them, that's why they should probably have things like podcasts where their voice is out there more, but it's one of those things that's such a great piece of advice. It's just like, you don't have to be one dimensional, just be yourself. Be real, be human. You can add value to your users and find others through doing that.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the benefits, the pros of not being that big. One of the beauties of starting out small and not having a huge audience is that you don't have to be this put together brand that is one dimensional. You have the ability to connect with your audience on a real human level.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And again, like we just talked about in the beginning, it's also great because it shows you who's not for you, and that's perfect too. I'm sure there's a lot of people that found me and then didn't like that. And I don't necessarily care that they didn't stick around. And so I just think, the more you get to show up in that way, we're always afraid of what we're going to lose and I just think for me, this lesson was, you don't realize how much you can gain. Just how much more fun it becomes, how much more you gain in audience.
Julian Lewis:
I was literally having a similar conversation with my wife the other day because I have such a love-hate relationship for social media, having worked in it for such a long time, and it's hard for me because it's like, sometimes I'm like, "I want to say stuff, whatever I want to say and say it." And then sometimes I'm just like, "But why? What's the point?" I don't want to make you feel bad or I don't want to get a response from people. And so I think whatever you do, find a platform that works for you and just be yourself. And I think that's ultimately how you can grow.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I think you're absolutely right. I think we're all still learning our relationship with social media. And I think for most people, it's a love-hate relationship and there's so many wonderful things and there's so many horrible things and it's really figuring out. And even with me this way, I say like, I'm still figuring it out. It's like I did that and I now I've given myself more license to show up, but I go through the same thing.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Every day I'm like, "Is this worth posting about? Do I want to deal with all the DMs I'm going to get about this? Not really." And sometimes I choose not to. And so I think that's just part of the game too, is figuring out what can I do to preserve my own energy and still show up the way that I want to? And I agree exact with what you said, figure out the platforms that work for you and just stay on those and don't try to do everything.
TJ Bonaventura:
So I think this is a good opportunity to tie it up because you just went and gave us so much advice. But if you had to narrow it down to, and remember our audience here is a curious and scrappy podcast, or whether that somebody who went through podfade, someone who's starting to launch their show or somebody who works for an organization who wants to create a podcast for internal purposes, what is the advice that you would give them as they're starting or they're trying to restart their show?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. I would say, again, wherever you are, always look for the long game. We've all heard that quote where we overestimate what we can do in a year and we underestimate what we can do in a decade. I think everybody says this, but with podcasting, it really is a snowball effect. It just grows and I think too many people, because even though they might hear it, they're still not seeing that return on investment, so they very quickly bow out.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I would just say, if you can figure out your why behind it and get really clear on that so you're having fun while you're doing it, and really focus on the long game with podcasting and really figure out how can you enjoy it and keep doing it, there's so much room for growth and there's so much opportunity and it's such a beautiful way to connect with people. So I would definitely recommend people doing it. I just think, give yourself a chance to grow it into something that you want. You're going to need time for that.
Julian Lewis:
This has been absolutely phenomenal. Do you want to let people know where they can find you?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah.
Julian Lewis:
And I will say just really quickly that I just want to thank you because you to shared with me a spreadsheet on how to prepare to quit and make that jump. And that became my armor or my ammo to present it to my now wife. I was like, "Hey, I have it figured out. Otherwise, I'd have just mentioned up but that actually helped me get her buy in to be able to do this full time. So thank you.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I love that. Oh my God, I'm so glad it helped. Of course. Yeah, you guys can find me pretty much most places at Lessons From a Quitter. So obviously you're listening to podcasts. You can check out the podcast or I hang out mostly on Instagram. So you could DM me. Let me know you guys found me through here, and come say hi, but yeah, anywhere, you can go to lessonsfromaquitter.com and hopefully if you are unhappy in your career, I can help you make the jump too.
Julian Lewis:
Awesome. Thank you again.
TJ Bonaventura:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining.
Goli Kalkhoran:
No problem. This was so fun. Thanks guys.
Speaker 3:
Whoo!
TJ Bonaventura:
Every episode of the PodOn Podcast is produced and edited by StudioPod Media. For more information about our work and our clients, go to studiopodsf.com.
Julian Lewis:
Shout out to Goli Kalkhoran for the fire track. Goli O!
Okay, PodOn peeps, super excited about today's episode, where Julian and I are going to be joined by Goli Kalkhoran, longtime friend of the show in StudioPod. Goli is a lawyer-turned-entrepreneur, which is just a fancy way of saying she tried to quit law, and she did quit law. She tried a bunch of things after she quit law and she happened upon an idea that she turned into a business and a brand.
TJ Bonaventura:
That brand is Lessons From A Quitter, which includes a podcast where she uses her platform to destigmatize quitting and provide resources and inspiration to individuals looking to pivot their established career. Julian and I resonate with Goli the moment we met her in LA at Podcast Evolutions just over a year ago, as Julian and I have both left our careers to start a podcast production company, which is now StudioPod.
TJ Bonaventura:
I hope you all enjoy this episode and takes little nuggets of what it takes to start a podcast, and also some risks you need to take. And honestly, and understanding that there's going to be a little bit of failure and there's a lot of lessons to be learned on this show. So enjoy Goli and here we go. This is the PodOn Podcast. We're your host, TJ Bonaventura, that's me, and Julian Lewis.
Julian Lewis:
That's me. As founders of a podcast media company, we had to start a podcast.
TJ Bonaventura:
So join us each episode as we and our guest drop knowledge on podcasting for you, the curious and scrappy podcaster.
Speaker 3:
Whoo!
Julian Lewis:
Welcome back to the PodOn Podcast. Today we have an extra special guest, a guest that we met at our first podcast conference, what was at Podcast Evolutions, right before the pandemic hit. Goli, we met in the hall, I believe, TJ and I had spread stickers all over the entryway table just to try to get the word out on StudioPod and we just ran into you.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah, you guys were actually wearing matching jackets, which was a really nice touch, a real nice touch. And actually it's really smart because it was like an ice breaker because it gave me, I think we were just standing next to each other and I was like, "How do I get one of those jackets?" We were just, I don't know. You guys have [inaudible 00:02:11]. So then we started talking there, which was nice.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And I think the thing about that conference for us, it was a little intimidating because we were just getting started together on the business and it was like, we don't know what to expect. We don't know who we're going to run into, but it was such a great opportunity to meet great people like you, who were in different stages of what you do in podcasting.
Julian Lewis:
And so with this particular episode, we really want to dive into how you got into podcasting, but first I think it's very important for people to understand what you were doing before you started your podcast.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Okay. Yeah. So I actually, in another life, I was a lawyer for a number of years. So my career was doing what I was supposed to do, going to school, going to law school, becoming a lawyer. And I worked as a lawyer for a number of years and then in 2014, I decided to walk away. I was really unhappy in that career and I was very lost as to what I want to because it was the only thing I'd ever done. It's the only thing I'd ever worked for. It's the only skills I had. And so I was terrified, but I also was committed to not spending the next 35 years being unhappy.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I was like, "You know what? I got to figure this out." And so I left really having no idea what I was going to do. And long story short, I spent about four years building another business, a photo booth company, figuring out jumping into entrepreneurship, really discovering who I am, doing a lot of that interpersonal journey work.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And then in that time, two years in, I was listening to a lot of podcasts. I was really changing my mindset through listening to podcasts. It was the first time that I was really discovering another way that I didn't have to stay stuck. And so I loved the medium of podcasting from the beginning because I had a baby in 2014. So it was just really helpful when I was cleaning around the house or I was at home to listen to podcasts. So I was consuming a lot of podcasts.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And then I started having this idea of interviewing people who had quit very successful professional careers, careers that most people would think you're crazy to walk away from, and then doing something completely different, because I would get so many of my law school friends, law firm friends, just people that would find out that I left and they would confide like, "I wish I could leave. You're so lucky. Why don't we talk about this?"
Goli Kalkhoran:
So many people are miserable, but they feel stuck. We're just wasting our lives away in places that we hate. And so I had this idea for two years and I didn't... In 2016, I knew I was going to eventually start a podcast about this, but I had all these limiting beliefs and all these other stories about why I couldn't, why I wasn't the one to do it, and who am I and why would anyone listen to me and all that other BS that I had to get over. And it was just like it wouldn't go away.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I kept being like, "Okay, maybe later, maybe right now is not the time." And I remember actually in 2018, I would incessantly check, I would browse podcasts, and I always had the fear that somebody else was going to start it. I was going to see the podcast that was exactly this topic and I knew I would be filled with regret.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so in 2018 I saw another podcast that was similar. It wasn't about this, but it was about, it's called Don't Keep Your Day Job with Cathy Heller. It's a pretty big podcast. And I just remember that sinking feeling, oh, it's very closely related. Obviously there's a lot of podcasts on the same topic, but at the time, with my mindset, it was just the awakening that I needed, that I was like, put this fricking podcast out, stop stalling. You want to do it, just do it already.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I just decided to put it out there and I had no idea really what it was going to become. I didn't have an idea about monetizing from it. I didn't have an idea of turning into a business. I was just like, "I want to have this conversation." I have this conversation all the time with people in private. People ask me about it, because I'd taken the leap, I started seeing the story everywhere.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I would see news articles about people that had quit, we had parties talking to people and they'd be like, "Oh, I used to be a lawyer and I quit and I'm doing this." And I'm like, "What? I never heard these stories when I was a lawyer."
Goli Kalkhoran:
So anyways, it's not long story short. It's a long story long. Now it took all of that for me to put it out in 2018 and really just started interviewing other people. And I called it Lessons From A Quitter, and it's obviously tongue in cheek and it's meant to change the idea that we have around quitting in these false beliefs that we have like once you pick something, you have to stick to that. Even if you pick something at 18 and then you're never allowed to change your mind, you always have to persist. And so I really wanted to show you can start over and you can do something else.
TJ Bonaventura:
Thanks for sharing that. It's very serendipitous that we met at that conference because our stories aligned pretty well, where in 2016, I had the idea of creating a studio to help people have a turnkey option to create their podcast. And then it wasn't until 2018 that I ultimately decided to jump all in and then Julian came on board and the rest of it is history. But I think for our audience-
Julian Lewis:
Flexibility history. [inaudible 00:07:12]
TJ Bonaventura:
There you go. For our audience where I think it really resonates and everyone has that moment where they're like, "We want to something." For us specifically, it's podcasting. I read a book, When To Jump by Mike Lewis, that was very influential for me and it was that moment of, oh, shit, I got to do this. If I don't scratch it, it's going to be 35 years later, like you said, and I'm just [inaudible 00:07:27] what have I done?
TJ Bonaventura:
For our audience and ultimately our clients that come in who want to start a podcast, they have this idea and they have this itch that they want to scratch, but they don't really know that first step is that they should take. And back in 2016, you could just start a show. And you were able to have a really niche topic that you wanted to talk about and ultimately people would listen.
TJ Bonaventura:
Now the market's gotten very saturated. There's probably two or three shows that exist around the topic that you want to chat about. So we are encouraging a lot of our clients to use the podcast as a larger arm towards their macro brand. Can you speak to how you have built the Lessons Of a Quitter brand around the podcast?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Totally. Yeah, I did it backwards, I think. I just did it because I really wanted to have this conversation and I didn't have a plan. And now I definitely use it as an arm of marketing for my business and I think if you have more of a brand that you want to create, really special thing about podcasting is that it's such an intimate medium.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So part of brand work, any type of marketing, is building your, they call it the know, like, and trust factor. You want to build a relationship with people because people buy because of that relationship. People hire you, people trust you. And once you can build that, it's easier to get over objections. It's easier for you to sell whatever that you are selling and for people to trust you. And so it's, I think the best medium, when you look at a lot...
Goli Kalkhoran:
Other mediums are great at other things, but podcasting, it's not the best, I would say, in width. So if you're trying to go viral or you're trying to go get huge numbers, podcasting is not the place to do that. But from the people that are going to find you and then you're in their ear every week and you're talking to them about the thing that they're coming to you for, it creates an unparallel level of intimacy between you and your listeners and so they feel like they know you. I feel like this with the podcasters I listen to. I feel like they're in my living room and they're just talking to me and I trust them so much more.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I think when you look at it that way, that's where I try to go the deepest is in my podcast. My material in my podcast is going to be the people that really do want to work with me, go there. And then Instagram, all that other stuff, TikTok. Those are more width. We are trying to get more people to know who you are.
Julian Lewis:
I love that you talk about it as an intimate medium, and just an example, a couple weeks ago and then last night, I was pitching two individuals on executing a starter pack with us where we can just help them get started because we want to remove that barrier and then we want to get options afterwards of how they can work with us.
Julian Lewis:
And in that conversation that we had, it was through a mutual connection, before we had the conversation, she had gone to our website, saw a picture of TJ and I, and then she listened to an episode of the PodOn Podcast. And she said, "I can see why I would want to work with y'all because of your personalities."
Julian Lewis:
And I think it gives you such a great piece of marketing for somebody to discover you and already have an idea of who you are. You're not necessarily like a scummy salesperson who's trying get you to buy something exactly to your point, but you're a human behind that. And I think for me, having worked at a large platform in Pinterest, that's very well known, it wasn't hard to get in the door, but it was still hard to make a sale because I was a salesperson coming to them. I wasn't somebody who was trying to add value out of the gates by having them on my show or having a conversation.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. And I think that right now in this world of oversaturation of everywhere, there's influencers on every platform, there's people trying to sell you all the time, every single day everyone's vying for your attention, it can feel very quickly overwhelming. And I think a lot of people have a lot of distrust. And so I just think that it really helps you find who your people are.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And another great thing is, it helps you find who your people aren't. Somebody might listen to your podcast and just know that they don't want to work with you. And that's just as good of an understanding as it is finding the people because you just want to know who going to be your best clients, who you're going to work well with. It takes exactly what you're saying, you don't then have to do tons of sales calls or create this whole funnel and won't nurture them. Your podcast does that all on its own.
TJ Bonaventura:
Yeah, that's so great that you said that. And then Julian and I were smiling when you mentioned getting a no is just as good as a yes is an old sales adage that we used to have, where it's like, "Know what? If they say no, good. Then I don't have to spin my wheels with them. Now we can focus on the potential real clients or the people that are really serious about creating, in this case, a podcast."
TJ Bonaventura:
I want to touch on a little bit of when you first got started. What were some measurements and goals that you had yourself as you began to record, as you began to edit, as you really wanted to your show off the ground? And I think you're well over 100 episodes already.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah, I'm at 130. Yeah.
TJ Bonaventura:
Yeah, it's awesome.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah.
TJ Bonaventura:
Congratulations. That's a big number. It's a big number.
Goli Kalkhoran:
It is, yeah. I know it's...
TJ Bonaventura:
It's like two years worth.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yep. It is. It's almost two and a half years. Yeah. Yeah, I'm super proud of that. And that's actually the only measurement I really was focusing on when I started. I told myself, "I'm going to do this for a year, come hell or high water. I'm going to put out an episode every single week for one year and then I can reassess." Because I know the drama that lives inside your brain, and I know every week my brain would be checking stats and being like, "This isn't worth it. Nobody's listening. You shouldn't do it."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I'd heard somebody say beforehand that it takes a year of podcasting to really feel like you know what you're doing. To get an understanding of your brand, to really get an understanding, get... For it to feel smooth.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I was like, "Okay, we're just not going to second guess it." And that's honestly why I picked podcasting too, is talking is easier for me than writing. I knew if I'd picked a blog, I wouldn't put out a blog every week. I just wouldn't. I wouldn't write it. I'd find an excuse. Having an excuse to talk to someone every week was just Christmas morning. I love that stuff.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So I'm like, "I could do this all day long." And so I just decided I'm not going to obsess over metrics. I'm not going to obsess over how many downloads it is or what's happening. I mean, I was looking at growth and I was looking at when I have certain guests and who shares and does their platform matter and where is this making a difference and what platforms should I be on?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Sure. I was looking at all that, but my focus the first year was just put out a podcast every single week. That's your job, is making sure that everyone knows, on Tuesday, there's going to be a new podcast. And so I'm so glad I did that because there would've been... I would've quit if I didn't.
Goli Kalkhoran:
There's a reason there's podfade. There's a reason that so many people think it's not worth it. I don't think they give it the time that it requires to build an audience, for you to figure out what you're doing, figure out systems, figure out a marketing plan. And so that's really all I cared about in the beginning.
Julian Lewis:
What was the hardest week in that year? Meaning, I've had moments where I've been in my garage, it's Sunday night, trying to publish an episode for Monday and this is obviously [inaudible 00:14:29]. What was the hardest day or the hardest time?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. I mean, I definitely had times, I don't remember the exact time, but I definitely had, I would say there's two different times where it was really hard. One is, when technology just isn't working with you. So the episode didn't record, you try to upload it, it's not upload... You want to just throw the computer and I'm like, "I don't even want to do this anymore. This is too blur."And that doesn't happen that often, but there was definitely moments of that kind of frustration.
Goli Kalkhoran:
But I just think we don't accept the fact that self-doubt is going to be a part of the process and it's normal. And I think, there was definitely times where I was questioning like, "Why am I doing this? Is this worth all this work? Is this making a difference? Is anyone even listening? No one's responding to my... No one's even engaging with my posts. Nobody cares."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so when you go on those little spirals, and I would get to a place, because I had two young kids at the time, like when I started in 2018, my daughter was under a year and my son was like four, five, and I'm like, "What am I doing?" And I didn't have a business strategy. I didn't have a plan. And so I think I felt lost in a lot of it.
Goli Kalkhoran:
What am I even going to do with this? It was very clear that I wasn't going to be a huge podcast where I was going to get marketing money, sponsorship revenue. And so that was the hardest, was getting to a place where it's, is it worth it? Because there's a right or wrong answer. Nobody else could tell me if it was worth it or not. If it was going to be... I would listen to things that motivated me, but I definitely had weeks where I was ready to pack it in. And I was like, "I can't keep doing this."
TJ Bonaventura:
So what did you use as motivation then? What did you use to persevere because I think this instant gratification of podcasting is something that is long since past us, which I mentioned a little bit earlier, and we see all these articles, right? So what did you use for motivation?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. I mean, luckily I was doing a lot of work on my mindset. That's what I coach on now and I became really obsessed with mindset work because I was really obsessed with figuring out why I was on this rollercoaster all the time and it felt like I couldn't control my own emotions and stuff. And so because of that work, I just was following people who were giving that same message like it's not going to be... It doesn't have to be a quick thing. Persistence is what's going to get you there and building slowly. And so sometimes it was just on an act of faith.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And again, this is what I'm saying is, I think that making that deal with myself to do it for a year really helped because I was like, "You know what? We've already decided we're doing this for a yeah so stop, you can be as upset as you want, but we're doing this for the next 20 episodes. So just buckle up and do it."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so sometimes it's just pushing through, but a lot of it was me really working on my mindset and realizing why am I doing this? If I'm loving why I'm doing it, why am I getting so caught in the metrics or people not responding the way I want to and whatnot? And so it was a really a lot of focusing back on why I was doing it and managing my own mind through that process.
Julian Lewis:
That's phenomenal. So at what point, was it in the first year or was it after the first year that you were like, you know what, I'm enjoying doing the podcast, but having these conversation is making me want to turn it into more than just a podcast?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. It was like around the one year mark. I mean, I was thinking about it throughout, and again, it was a lot of limiting beliefs of I can't help people and then why, like I'm just going to have these conversations, but I kept getting people messaging me or emailing me, reaching out with the same problems, the same question, the same stuckness, the same fears. It was the same exact person, like the same brain.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I started offering free offer to help them. Or I would just get on a phone and try to figure out what was stopping them or I would help them in my Facebook group, my free Facebook group. And so many people started telling me how helpful it was and how much it had changed the way they thought about it and whatnot.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So then it was right after the first year that I was like, "Let me try and just launch a group program and see if I can get a group of people or we work together and we figure out, so they can figure out what it is they want to do and stuff." And so I just started kind of...
Goli Kalkhoran:
I had been learning more about online businesses and I had seen a lot of people launch courses and coaching programs. And again, I had a lot of the imposter syndrome of, oh, I didn't do this, but I guess one of the good qualities I have is I can push through a lot of my... I mean, after you walk away from being a lawyer, I feel I dealt with the okay, I'm afraid, but I'm going to do it anyways.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so I was just like, "Okay, let me just try. If nobody signs up, nobody signs up." And then people signed up and then people had really great results and people loved it. And I started realizing that I love that work more than I liked the podcast. I loved the one-on-one work, I love the coaching aspect. And so it really started from that.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I started doing a coaching thing and then I went and I got a certification as mindset life coach, but focusing really on mindset work and helping people get out of their own way. And then, last year was really when I went all in on the business aspect of it.
Julian Lewis:
That's awesome. We're definitely following up on the mindset life coach. I was telling TJ that I want to do mirror meditations.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Go on. I love that.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah, that could be another topic that we talk about.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. The one thing I wanted to talk about is because you mentioned that you do some pods where you're recording by yourself, sometimes you're having different guests on. A big challenge that we see with a lot of our clients and a bottleneck is the idea of finding the right guest for your show that's going to resonate with your audience, and not just the content of what you're going to be talking about, but actually facilitating that scheduling of getting the recording done and all of that effort that goes into it. What have you learned in your process of 130 episodes in that could maybe offer a little bit help or advice for our listeners?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah, I would say the first 100 were all interviews. Maybe I did like one or two podcasts here and there where it was a year in review or something. But again, it was all my limiting beliefs of, well, people don't want to listen to me or it's like they're here for the interviews, and it's a lot of work. There's no really two ways about it because I was very protective of who I brought on the show. I really wanted it to be people that fit the criteria of somebody that had worked to create a career and then quit and went to something completely different.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I had a VA that helped me reach out to people. I started getting pitched more so that helped find some people. And it's funny because once you put it out there, I would get a lot of people that would, just listeners or family, friends, friends who would see somebody on NBC or whatever that was talking about and they would message me and be like, "You should reach out to this person."
Goli Kalkhoran:
So I found out a lot of people that way. I would just call, email them and be like, "Hey, I have this podcast. I would love for you to come on." That was a lot of work. I'm not going to lie. Since I've switched my format to doing mostly solo episodes with sprinkling in some guest interviews, it's just opened up because I control when I record my solo episodes and I can batch them and I can do four in a row and I can...
Goli Kalkhoran:
And so it makes it a lot easier, whereas you're right where when you're doing interviews, it's based on both parties' schedules, it's harder to find something that works. It's harder to find someone that you like that's a good fit that agrees to come on that.So there's a lot more steps.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I would say, I wanted to do solo episodes probably like six months before I actually started. And once I did it, it was amazing how much my audience wanted that. I was just hiding behind that fear again but so many have told me that they like the interviews, but they listen for me and so they want to hear because I always think like, "Why do you care what I think? You should do for your life."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And hearing that that is why they're listening to you. And so to experiment. I think so often we get so precious with our podcast like, this is the way it is. It's an hour long and it's every week. And it's like, okay, well, switch it up, try a 30-minute solo one and see what happens. I think a lot of times we are too scared to take those risks. I would say that's my biggest advice is every time I've pivoted or done something else, it's always worked out really well. And so I'm learning that, to be less afraid and make those changes each time a little bit faster.
Julian Lewis:
I love that you say that. And that's one of the things that we try to do with our hosts, is instill confidence in them, knowing that no matter what, no matter how great of a guest or high profile of a guest that they have, at the end of the day, people are coming back for them. And that's feedback that I got. TJ and I are part of a group that met in person, it was a meetup group, I could sit in this hot seat and get feedback and people are like, "We want to hear your voice more."
Julian Lewis:
And I was like, "Oh, okay." I was interviewing couples. I was like, "Why do you want to hear my voice?" But they're like, "You're the one who's tying it all together." And so I love that that was a discovery that you had and I think more and more people should feel confident that over time, maybe use a guest as a crutch in the beginning, but over time be confident and you have the ability to really manage and own that show.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah.
TJ Bonaventura:
And I think it also goes to what you're saying there, Julian, and also Goli, what you were saying in terms of just going and recording, giving yourself, I'm going to do a year's worth of recording. It will probably be rough early on. And you're going to be really hard on yourself and that's going to lean into the podfade and you're going to have this moment of lack of confidence but as you continue to record and force yourself to record, you'll learn and you'll ultimately be at a place where you have the confidence of maybe taking a shot and doing a solo recording. I think all of it ties together and oftentimes we're super hard on ourselves. And it goes back into the idea of just leaving your job for something that you have a passion, that's all a scary jump.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Absolutely. And I think to piggyback off that a little bit is, you hear this all the time, but I think I really want people to hear it and take it in, is that you're always comparing your step one to someone else's step 20 or step 30 or whatever, a year, 10. And you're in year one. And you think that you have to have everything figured out and you think it has to be perfect and you can never change it because like so and so... You listen to these podcasts and it's like you are not seeing what that person was starting at.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Every single person, when you start digging, it's like there are no overnight successes. There really aren't. And the more you're willing to give yourself permission to start messy and to be fully human and understand that everybody is starting like that and there can be mistakes.
Goli Kalkhoran:
One of the things that I think my audience always says they love about my show and following me is that, I'm very committed to showing all of my messiness. So I in no way try to portray that I have it together or that I'm perfect. And first of all, it makes it easier for me because I don't have to put on an act to be perfect.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So when I mess up or I send an email to my lose utter that was wrong or the link isn't working or something, they understand that I'm like, "Look, hey, we're failing forward together. Here we go. Here's the link again." It's not like I'm like, oh, I'm trying to be this brand that has this huge team behind them that's doing everything exactly right.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I think when you can take that pressure off, you're somebody that's figuring it out. You're trying something. You're going to mess up. Just plan for that. You're going to fail and that's totally fine. It doesn't mean you're not good at it or you don't have a future in it or anything. When you take that pressure of perfectionism off, it makes it so much more fun. You're like, "Okay, I'm going to try. And when I fail, I'll get back up and I'll do it again."
Julian Lewis:
I love that, removing that bar and you said it's easy for you to be you and show that side. I mean, the first time you do it, you might not be hard for you to say it out loud that yeah, I messed up.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Totally.
Julian Lewis:
But once you do and people don't rip you apart, you're like, "Oh, I could just be me."
Goli Kalkhoran:
Great, and you give people permission to be them. This is what I'm saying. I think people are like, oh. It's sort of comforting. I think in this day and age of social media where a lot of times people, it may look like you're looking at other people and they have their lives together, a lot of the people that I coach, a lot of people that are in my programs, we always joke about it because I'm like, "If I could build a business like this, be in this kind of a hot mess, you can do it too."
Goli Kalkhoran:
And it gives them permission to be like, nothing is going to define you, one mistake or whatnot. And so I think if we could all just stop trying to act like we have it together. And I mean, I always say this, one of my biggest things, nobody has any idea what they're doing. Everyone's just figuring it out. We're all just taking one step and putting it in front of the other. And when you can adopt that, I feel it makes it easy for you, but it also gives permission to your listenership and your customers to be full humans.
TJ Bonaventura:
It's so funny because we get so many awesome ideas that come through our window or our doorways of the studio where like, "Hey, I have this idea for a podcast and it's really awesome and it's got to be super tailored." And then they start asking, "What if I did this? Or what if I did that? What if I did a half interview or what if I did a super long narrative style podcast?"
TJ Bonaventura:
And we're like, "Just do it, try it, you got to risk, learn from it." And they're like, "Wait, what? You're supposed to tell me what to do." And it's like, "Sometimes we don't know what to do." We're figuring out too on our end, we're trying some new styles here in StudioPod and we want to put that up.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I'm going to give you an example of this really quickly. I'm not saying I recommend this, but I just want people to understand. So my platform's called Lessons From a Quitter. So I always talk about career stuff and changes and all that. Last May, in 2021 after George Floyd's murder and the Black Lives Matter movement, there was all the protests everywhere and I used to be a criminal defense attorney.
Goli Kalkhoran:
So I have a unique knowledge of the criminal justice system in America. I used to be a public defender. So I understand from that lens of the problems with the criminal justice system. I think everybody was in a place where it was like, I didn't care about my business at the time and I just figured I can help. I have this platform, I'm just going to do, I did a couple podcast episodes.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I did IGTV. I don't do IGTVs videos at all, but I did a video on the criminal justice system and the problem with it and what stuff. And I did a TikTok. Blew up. Okay? So my audience went from 6,000 people to 19,000 in a week. In TikTok, I went from, I don't know, 20,000, I have 125,000 followers on TikTok now. It exploded. Okay? That's not the thing I talk about.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And what's funny is I was like, "Okay, when that's kind of..." And I did a bunch of other videos on it. And then I transitioned back to the things that I normally talk about over time over the months. And I kept thinking, "Well, I'm probably lose a bunch of followers because they're not here for that." I can't tell you how many customers I've gotten from people that found me because of that and they were interested and then stuck around because they actually need this help too.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I say this just to say, I think we as "brands," it's like we think we're stuck in one thing and you're not allowed to be, like I say, my whole thing about my platform is like, it's just all me. I'm a multifaceted person. I have different views on a lot of different things. And if you don't like it, that's fine, but I'm not going to limit myself to this is all I ever talk about and I can never talk about anything else and I can never do anything else.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And again, for myself, anytime I've gone with that gut, I want to address this, it's worked out. If this helps in any way, I think it was a good lesson for me but again, people want you to be a full human. They don't necessarily need you to just be a brand. And so the more you put yourself in a box, that I can only talk about this, or I can only, and I don't want to lose anything, a lot of times you give up on opportunities to connect with people in different ways to grow your audience in other ways. And it just makes it more fun. It makes it more fun to be able to show up fully as yourself.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. So there's two huge takeaways that I took from that. I mean, so many more, but two great ones. Is, from your platform, just because you quit what you were doing before doesn't mean you don't have that [inaudible 00:30:06] and you can add it to what you're going to do next-
Goli Kalkhoran:
100%.
Julian Lewis:
And that was huge. But then also earlier you're talking about just being real. Like I messed up, I didn't have a link in my newsletter or whatever. It didn't work, whatever it is, but in addressing something that was going on in the world, you truly went from real to being a human and that's what attracted others to you. And now you can go back to your regular scheduled program and knowing that if something else happened, you can address it again and feel comfortable doing so.
Julian Lewis:
And I think that's what's so hard about a brand that tries to step into those conversations, is they don't do that on a normal basis. Don't know who's behind it, and for them, that's why they should probably have things like podcasts where their voice is out there more, but it's one of those things that's such a great piece of advice. It's just like, you don't have to be one dimensional, just be yourself. Be real, be human. You can add value to your users and find others through doing that.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the benefits, the pros of not being that big. One of the beauties of starting out small and not having a huge audience is that you don't have to be this put together brand that is one dimensional. You have the ability to connect with your audience on a real human level.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And again, like we just talked about in the beginning, it's also great because it shows you who's not for you, and that's perfect too. I'm sure there's a lot of people that found me and then didn't like that. And I don't necessarily care that they didn't stick around. And so I just think, the more you get to show up in that way, we're always afraid of what we're going to lose and I just think for me, this lesson was, you don't realize how much you can gain. Just how much more fun it becomes, how much more you gain in audience.
Julian Lewis:
I was literally having a similar conversation with my wife the other day because I have such a love-hate relationship for social media, having worked in it for such a long time, and it's hard for me because it's like, sometimes I'm like, "I want to say stuff, whatever I want to say and say it." And then sometimes I'm just like, "But why? What's the point?" I don't want to make you feel bad or I don't want to get a response from people. And so I think whatever you do, find a platform that works for you and just be yourself. And I think that's ultimately how you can grow.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I think you're absolutely right. I think we're all still learning our relationship with social media. And I think for most people, it's a love-hate relationship and there's so many wonderful things and there's so many horrible things and it's really figuring out. And even with me this way, I say like, I'm still figuring it out. It's like I did that and I now I've given myself more license to show up, but I go through the same thing.
Goli Kalkhoran:
Every day I'm like, "Is this worth posting about? Do I want to deal with all the DMs I'm going to get about this? Not really." And sometimes I choose not to. And so I think that's just part of the game too, is figuring out what can I do to preserve my own energy and still show up the way that I want to? And I agree exact with what you said, figure out the platforms that work for you and just stay on those and don't try to do everything.
TJ Bonaventura:
So I think this is a good opportunity to tie it up because you just went and gave us so much advice. But if you had to narrow it down to, and remember our audience here is a curious and scrappy podcast, or whether that somebody who went through podfade, someone who's starting to launch their show or somebody who works for an organization who wants to create a podcast for internal purposes, what is the advice that you would give them as they're starting or they're trying to restart their show?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah. I would say, again, wherever you are, always look for the long game. We've all heard that quote where we overestimate what we can do in a year and we underestimate what we can do in a decade. I think everybody says this, but with podcasting, it really is a snowball effect. It just grows and I think too many people, because even though they might hear it, they're still not seeing that return on investment, so they very quickly bow out.
Goli Kalkhoran:
And I would just say, if you can figure out your why behind it and get really clear on that so you're having fun while you're doing it, and really focus on the long game with podcasting and really figure out how can you enjoy it and keep doing it, there's so much room for growth and there's so much opportunity and it's such a beautiful way to connect with people. So I would definitely recommend people doing it. I just think, give yourself a chance to grow it into something that you want. You're going to need time for that.
Julian Lewis:
This has been absolutely phenomenal. Do you want to let people know where they can find you?
Goli Kalkhoran:
Yeah.
Julian Lewis:
And I will say just really quickly that I just want to thank you because you to shared with me a spreadsheet on how to prepare to quit and make that jump. And that became my armor or my ammo to present it to my now wife. I was like, "Hey, I have it figured out. Otherwise, I'd have just mentioned up but that actually helped me get her buy in to be able to do this full time. So thank you.
Goli Kalkhoran:
I love that. Oh my God, I'm so glad it helped. Of course. Yeah, you guys can find me pretty much most places at Lessons From a Quitter. So obviously you're listening to podcasts. You can check out the podcast or I hang out mostly on Instagram. So you could DM me. Let me know you guys found me through here, and come say hi, but yeah, anywhere, you can go to lessonsfromaquitter.com and hopefully if you are unhappy in your career, I can help you make the jump too.
Julian Lewis:
Awesome. Thank you again.
TJ Bonaventura:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining.
Goli Kalkhoran:
No problem. This was so fun. Thanks guys.
Speaker 3:
Whoo!
TJ Bonaventura:
Every episode of the PodOn Podcast is produced and edited by StudioPod Media. For more information about our work and our clients, go to studiopodsf.com.
Julian Lewis:
Shout out to Goli Kalkhoran for the fire track. Goli O!